The focus of our attention in this proposition stems from the word after in the following verse from Matthew 24:

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 29  Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

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     When I think of prophecies of the last days being like pieces of a scenery puzzle, the prophecy of this verse reminds me of one of those pieces that won't actually fit where it may, at first, look like that it will.  Though I disagree with the post-trib rapture view, it is easy to see the seeming support for it in what Jesus here says.  Remember that this verse is part of the three verse paragraph I have been referring to as our focal passage (vss. 29-31).  When we consider what Jesus is here saying, and especially of what He says in verse 31 concerning the angels gathering together His elect, it would appear evident that the rapture occurs after the tribulation, hence, the seeming support for the post-trib rapture view.  By contrast, scholars who defend the common pre-trib position typically respond to this by proposing that verse 31 has nothing to do with the rapture in the first place, but with the future re-gathering of the Israelites to their homeland (see NOTE #1 at the bottom).  If there were such a passage as one on which a belief might turn, this would be a good candidate.

     What then is my understanding?  It is not what will be found elsewhere in the web world or in print.  A reason is that none are really dealing with the possibility that a couple of things being believed by practically everyone concerning our focal passage may be in error.  One of those things revolves around the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven," which has been the focus of our attention for the previous two propositions.  The other revolves around the word "tribulation" that is the focus of our present proposition.  It seems that all have simply taken it for granted that Jesus' appearance and the tribulation He here speaks of concerns His Second Advent and Daniel's 70th Week.  These two beliefs are like common denominators with each of the common views.  It's like, all are believing these two things, and from here or this vantage point, they go their own way, embracing interpretations that will fit the view of their persuasion.

     More to our verse of focus in this proposition, it may be helpful if I convey that it was the most difficult of the commonly appealed to last days' references for me to reconcile.  Because of this, I would be able to understand anyone's slowness in seeing what I will try to show.  That being said, we have to begin somewhere, and where I will begin is where this verse is found, in Matthew's account of Jesus' Olivet Discourse.  Realize that what I will be trying to show from this alone is not something that I count as being entirely convincing, but it is relevant.  Personally, I was not convinced until I began to factor in what I will be pointing out from The Revelation, which changed everything.  Also, the example that I will give from Noah's day was a memorable help to me.  Ready?

     First of all, as I mentioned above, one of the common denominators with each of the common views is that the tribulation Jesus spoke of in our focal passage is that of Daniel's 70th Week.  It seems that this is being regarded as a given, as if there is no other possibility or alternative.  But, is this so?  We know that all tribulation is not that of Daniel's 70th Week.

     Let's look at Jesus' statement again, with emphasis upon one of the other words:  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."  A question that this emphasis can pose is, "To what days of tribulation was He here referring?"  A quite natural response would be that He was referring to all that He had warned of up to this point.  This would take in all the preceding verses of His discourse, or Matthew 24:4-28.  Yet, there are indications that what He warned of in these verses concerns two different periods of time and tribulation.  While others have also noted this, interpretations vary as to the significance.

     As I showed in PROPOSITION K, one period of time and tribulation is outlined in verses 4-14 and agrees with what Christians have observed and experienced throughout the Church Age, even unto our day.  Jesus also spoke of a telling moral decline connected with this period, saying, "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (Matt. 24:12).  Sadly, and certainly, this describes where we are today.

     Note that just a little earlier, Jesus had said of this period, "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted" (vs. 9).  The word afflicted here is translated from the Greek word thlipsis, the same Greek word that is translated tribulation in our verse of focus.  It will help our understanding to remember this word.  In the next three paragraphs, it will be used some in place of our English word to emphasize a point.

     The other period of time and tribulation is outlined in verses 15-28 and agrees with what the Israelites will observe and experience during the seven years of Daniel's 70th Week---things which have not yet been fulfilled.  It opens thus:  "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place..." (vs. 15).  In verse 21, Jesus says of this time that there shall be "great tribulation" or great thlipsis, but even further qualifies this by saying, "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."  While there have been other times of great thlipsis  (like Stephen referred to in Acts 7:11), none have been or will be like this time.  This bespeaks the unprecedented nature of the tribulation or thlipsis that will be experienced during Daniel's 70th Week.

     Important to note is that in Luke's account of this part of Jesus' discourse, he records Jesus as saying that this time will be a time of "vengeance" (21:22) and "wrath" (21:23).  In other words, it will be a time of God's judgment on the world, meaning a whole different level or category of tribulation.  Interestingly, whereas in each account of Jesus' discourse (Matt. 24, Mk. 13, and Lk. 21) we find that the writers sometimes used different portions of what He said to express His message, they each record His use of the word "woe" relating to Daniel's 70th Week, which also bespeaks the extreme nature of this time (Matt. 24:29; Mk. 13:17; Lk. 21:23).

     In light of the above, if Jesus was indeed describing two different periods of thlipsis  in His discourse, the question of what days of thlipsis  He was referring to when He said, "Immediately after the [thlipsis] of those days" becomes highly relevant.  With this in mind, when the "[thlipsis] of those days" is understood as being in reference to that of the first period---which includes the thlipsis  of verse nine and what has characterized the Church Age---there is less difficulty reconciling the order of other last days' prophecies, as we will see.  Understood this way (and in English), "the tribulation of those days" would not be the tribulation of Daniel's 70th Week, but the tribulation of the Church Age, of which we are presently a part (see also NOTE #2).

     Not convinced?  As I indicated earlier, I can understand.  To be quite honest, if we only had what Jesus spoke in His Olivet Discourse, I don't know if I could have ever come to a conclusion on this with which I could have peace.  But there is more, and the reason there is more is that we need more.  This should not be a surprise to any of us.  As normally the case, we must also look at what God's Word reveals to us elsewhere.  Of this, the most revealing elsewhere is to be found in The Revelation.

     Consider again Jesus' Olivet Discourse in conjunction with what we find concerning the Seven Sealed Book in The Revelation.  As we found earlier in this site (see propositions L, M, N, O, P, and Q), what He warned of in the opening part of His discourse not only parallels with the tribulations that Christians have experienced and observed throughout the Church Age (even unto our day!), but with the first four seals.  Moreover, what He there warned of concerning martyrdom easily connects with all the martyrs of the Church Age and their cry for justice with the opening of the 5th Seal (R).  Further, the event with the celestial phenomena that He spoke of in our focal passage can be seen to be fulfilled with the opening of the 6th Seal (S, T, and U).  For more that confirms this, see NOTE #3.

     In consideration of what Jesus said and what we find in The Revelation, a problem is revealed with the typical understanding of our verse of focus, which problem is this:  If what Jesus here said is to be fulfilled when the 6th Seal is opened, and the "tribulation" that He spoke of connects with Daniel's 70th Week, His use of the word "after" would mean that this seven year period will be COMPLETELY OVER at this time, which will not fit.  This would also mean that what the people see at this time that causes them to say to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb" would have to be Christ's Second Advent, which likewise will not fit.  Why?  A glaring problem is that the 7th Seal would yet be UNTOUCHED, and this is not to mention everything else that is shown to take place after it is opened, including the undisputed account of Christ's Second Advent given much later, in Revelation 19:11-21.

     On the other hand, if the tribulation Jesus spoke of in our verse of focus connects with that that He spoke of in the opening part of His discourse, this would tie that time of tribulation, which fits with that of the Church Age, to both the first five seals and the 6th Seal, as follows:  Church Age tribulation (the first five seals), THEN, celestial phenomena at the time of the rapture (the 6th Seal).  By this fit, we also have the true answer to what the people actually see with the opening of the 6th Seal that causes them to cry out as they do, which answer is Jesus' exact words:  The appearance of "THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven."  Further, this would have the rapture happening before the opening of the 7th Seal and well before the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week, which will not begin until some months after this last seal is removed (a big focus in THE KEYS---PART II).

     In consideration of what I am pointing out, when The Revelation is looked at with a mind towards the order of everything, it can be seen that there is a difference with the order of what we find there and what Jesus said in His Olivet Discourse.  One of the things that The Revelation provides for us is the key to what this order will be.

     Looking more directly at this order, when we take what is revealed to us in The Revelation and tie this to what Jesus said in His discourse (using the Matthew 24 account), we find that the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th seals (Rev. 6:1-11) connect with what He said in the opening portion of His discourse (vss. 4-14).  Next, we find that the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17) does not connect with what He said in the next (or middle) portion of His discourse, but with the last portion of it (vss. 29-51), especially the opening three verses of it, which I have been referring to as our focal passage.  Finally, with the opening of the 7th Seal (Rev. 8:1), we find concerning what all will happen during the time of God's judgment (Rev. 8:2-20:15).  This will include Daniel's 70th Week (Rev. 11:1-19:21), which Jesus spoke of in the middle portion of His discourse (vss. 15-28).

     In tune with what we have been seeing, but from a different and helpful angle, consider our verse of focus as if Jesus had used some other (but synonymous) terms relating to what He said, like in this example:  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, shall the time of God's judgment begin."  Of course, what I show in bold is where Jesus actually said, "shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light..."  But, we know by The Revelation that what He is here speaking of will mark the day that God's judgment will begin, as John sees these celestial signs with the opening of the 6th Seal, just before the people cry out that "the great day of His wrath IS COME."  Compare again Joel 3:31, Acts 2:20, and Revelation 6:12 with verse 17.

     A paralleling example of what I am trying to show exists with the situation in Noah's day.  Thinking in retrospect, if Jesus had been speaking of that time, He could have said, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, 'were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened'" (Gen. 7:11).  Or, using synonymous terms, He could have said, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, 'the time of God's judgment began.'"  Whichever of these terms He might use, would we confuse the tribulation of those days with the time of God's judgment?  No.  We would know that the tribulation of those days would have to do with that time before the time of God's judgment, when "the wickedness of man was great in the earth" (Gen. 6:5), and "the earth was filled with violence" (Gen. 6:11).  In other words, in retrospect, it is easy to differentiate between the tribulation of those days and the time of God's judgment then, which began the day that the flood started.  Thinking now in prospect, it should not be too difficult to differentiate between the tribulation of our present day and the time of God's future judgment, which will begin the day that the sun becomes "black as sackcloth of hair" and the moon becomes "as blood."

     By the foregoing evidences, I hope that it can be seen that The Revelation establishes for us the real truth of what Jesus was teaching in our focal passage.  For me, it remains a contemplative and troubling thing that Satan, through scholarship, has essentially (at least, heretofore) robbed the Church of the most blessed "pre-trib" rapture passage found in all of Scripture, THE WORDS OF JESUS HIMSELF, in the last portion of His Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:29-51, Mk. 13:24-37, Lk. 21:25-36).   For an equally in-depth look at all of this from yet another angle (and with illustrations), see NOTE #4.

     While there seems to be no good place to stop, another something that I would like to call the reader to ponder upon is this:  If in our focal passage Jesus was speaking of the tribulation of Daniel's 70th Week and of His Second Advent, what in the world would be His reason for mentioning anything concerning signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars?  ANY kind of sign AT THAT TIME will be completely overshadowed by His presence!  On the other hand, if He is referring to the tribulation of the Church Age and of what He refers to as a "sign" appearance that He will make (e.g., on the order of a glimpse), these celestial signs would be lingering testimonies to what has just happened, after He is gone with the Church.  The rapture will happen so quickly and the upheaval will be such that the only signs of any hope for some could be what will still be seen in the sky, especially in view of the parable of the fig tree He now gives.  This parable will no doubt become a mainstay of hope for the 144,000 sealed Jews and those who refuse allegiance to the Antichrist.  Again, notice how this parable reads (with my explanatory notes), from Matthew 24:

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 32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree;  When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

 33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see ALL THESE THINGS (which would include the celestial signs), KNOW THAT IT (Christ's Second Advent) IS NEAR, even at the doors.

 34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.

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     We have considered many other evidences that support my present proposition, and there are more to come that will tie in in various ways.  To summarize the evidences that I have presented so far, my present proposition harmonizes with an understanding that:

1. Is supported by 2000 years of Church history that aligns with the opening of Jesus' Olivet Discourse.

2. Has Jesus' Olivet Discourse pertaining some to the Church, some to Israelites, and some to both.

3. Recognizes Christ's Sign Appearance as distinct from His Second Advent in the Olivet Discourse.

4. Recognizes Christ's Sign Appearance as distinct from His Second Advent in The Revelation.

5. Recognizes Christ's Sign Appearance as preceding His Second Advent by at least seven years.

6. Links the first section of Jesus' Olivet Discourse to the first five seals and the activity of the four horsemen.

7. Links the time of Christ's Sign Appearance to after the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:15-17).

8. Links both the Mark 13:24-27 and Luke 21:25-27 parallels of Matthew 24:29-31 to the 6th Seal.

9. Links "all the tribes" in Matthew 24:30 to "all the tribes" of Revelation 7:2-8 (note vs. 4).

10. Links the trumpet of Matthew 24:31 to the rapture trumpet (I Thess. 4:16 and I Cor. 15:52).

11. Links the "gather together" of Matthew 24:31 to the "gathering together" of II Thessalonians 2:1.

12. Links the gathered elect of Matthew 24:31 to the gathered multitude of Revelation 7:9-17.

13. Links "the one shall be taken, and the other left" of Matthew 24:40-41 to the event of the rapture.

14. Links the escape of which Jesus speaks in Luke 21:36 to the Church and the time of the rapture.

15. Links the 6th Seal and the rapture to the final fulfilling of Joel's Church Age prophecy (Acts 2:19-21).

16. Links Christ's Sign Appearance to His parable of the fig tree, in accord with the parable's context.

17. Links Christ's return as a "thief" to the time of the rapture and the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

18. Views none of God's wrath as happening until the day that the 6th Seal is opened (Rev. 6:17).

19. Views the opening of the 7th Seal as taking place the same day that the 6th Seal is opened.

20. Views the day that the 6th and 7th seals are opened as marking the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

21. Makes possible a truly consistent and chronological interpretation of The Revelation.

     I suppose that for every belief, a measure of faith is also required, and it is no different for my own.  But, as can be seen, it is not faith without foundation.  At this point, if Jesus had of declared outright, "Immediately after the tribulation of  the Church Age,"  everything that I have put forth in support of this belief would fit that declaration.  For me, this wheel of interpretation rolls truer than any other that I have found, and I am yet captivated by what it does for our understanding going forward.  Of course, you must be the judge of what it does for your own understanding.

     Finally, from the perspective of my view, there is coming a time when God will determine that it has been enough.  At that time, Christ will open the 6th Seal and return for His Bride, at which point Her tribulation, so long brought on by the activity of the four horsemen, will be forever over.  This event will include signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars and the appearance of "THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven."  The signs will no doubt linger well after the Son of man and His saved are long gone.  According to the evidence of Scripture, on this same day, Christ will also open the seventh or last seal---meaning He will then open the Seven Sealed Book---meaning the time of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment will have come.  Things will then come together (and quickly) for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week to begin.​​

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NOTES:

1. Recall that this was a focus in PROPOSITION K.  Following is a closely related paragraph from that chapter:  "By a normal understanding that doesn't stretch Scripture, it will be at the beginning of Christ's Reign that the Israelites will be re-gathered to their homeland as they migrate there under the supervision of the Lord (see Isaiah 11:11-12, 15-16;  35:8-10;  43:5-7;  49:22-23;  51:11;  60:9;  Jeremiah 23:5-8;  Ezekiel 20:40-44;  34:11-16;  37:21-25;  Hosea 3:4-5;  Amos 9:11-15;  and Zechariah 8:3-8).  I see no suggestion in these scriptures (or any other) of a re-gathering of the Israelites in a miraculous way by the angels, but rather, by other means (e.g., Isa. 11:15-16;  49:22-23;  Jer. 23:7-8).  While it is questionable what the need might even be to suddenly re-gather the Israelites to their homeland in a way that sounds like the rapture, it is certainly not hard to understand the need to gather the Church to Heaven in such a manner!"

2. For a more thorough focus on "those days" (Matt. 24:29), see Appendix #6.

3. In Matthew's account alone, there are seven parallels (in sequence) between what Jesus spoke and what John saw at this time.  When Mark and Luke's accounts are included, there are at least 10 parallels (see list, THE CLOSING SECTION).  The odds that what John saw with the opening of the 6th Seal is not in fulfillment of Jesus' words are astronomical.

4. Following is a link to another very important focus that supports all of the above (THE OLIVET DISCOURSE AND REVELATION CHRONOLOGY).  It is of great importance to look at things from all the angles, as it is from all the angles that we get the fuller picture.  It's like checking things out below the surface.  From what I have come to see, the common belief that the tribulation being spoken of in Matthew 24:29 concerns Daniel's 70th Week is purely superficial.  I'm reminded of a time when I was young and dived into the lake from the side of a dock.  I immediately hit bottom, crunching my neck.  At first, I thought I had really hurt myself and could have easily come up paralyzed.  This ended up becoming an important life lesson for me that things aren't always what they may at first appear to be, no matter how things may look on the surface.​​